The crisis in Anglicanism revisited

One of the problems with the response in the Anglican communion has been the uncontested assumption that it is the American Episcopalians who have departed from existing agreements. A thought-provoking counter to that assumption was posted recently at Ekklesia, where Savi Hensman points out that Anglican synods have repeatedly called on the different bodies in the communion to respect human rights, to listen carefully to the experience of the gay and lesbian people in the church, and to condemn "irrational fear" of homosexuals.
Instead of this listening process, it is patently clear that many of the outspoken opponents now threatening to leave are vigorously fomenting the very irrational fear they were supposed to be combating.
See http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/10247, "A Better Future for Anglicans?"

Clearly, the Episcopalians have pushed the bar too far with the gay question, especially in terms of the ordination of a bishop with that scenario. But really isn't the issue of the priestess bad enough? How could any true Anglican believe in such nonsense or even co-exist with it?

Those who consider themselves Anglo-Catholic worldwide should simply move out of the Anglican Church structure entirely. They should be welcome to come into the Catholic Church with an Anglican rite. Rome should show some concern for Anglo-Catholics but forget about the whole Anglican mess. Once they embraced the abomination of priestesses, they cut off all hope for any future union between the two Churches.

A flaw with Archbishop Williams arguement that a province cannot move forward on an issue unless all provinces agree has to do with the issue of womens ordination. If provinces such as the Episcopal Church had waited on all other provinces, then we still would not have women ordained in parts of the Anglican Communion. One of the benefits of the way the Anglican Communion is organized is that if the church in some places can accept ordination of women, then they can move forward, but those provinces that cannot accept it are not required to do so.

Very recently within these pages we have welcomely read the defense by brother Clint of the diverse under the oppression of strict fundamentalists, and one must wonder where he now falls upon this rift, in which analogous fundamentalists reject out of hand, and out of "their" Communion, the other.

We must also wonder with the naming of Burke to the Congregation for Bishops, cheek to jowl with Bernie Law, when we find a similar rift in our Catholic communion, especially now as bishops in Richmond and in Saginaw close from Catholic doors speaking engagements by brother bishops

As Williams has later acknowledged that only entire provinces (such as The Episcopal Church) and not individual dioceses can accede to the proposed Anglican Covenant, it is unlikely that individual dioceses in the US will be able to do so.

Williams has seriously misjudged the appetite of TEC to stay within his version of an Anglican Communion in which he is a quasi-Pope and majority votes of the Primates of the provinces can pass judgment on an individual province's life and work. He (along with most other non-North American Anglican Bishops) is also seriously ignorant of the democratic principles under which TEC is governed--assuming that Bishops, as in many other provinces, are the final authority. Only General Convention has final authority in TEC, and General Convention is composed of two houses, one of Bishops, and the other of clergy and laity--analogous to the US Congress.

The earliest that General Convention (which meets every three years--last meeting this summer) could take up an Anglican Covenant is 2012, and two successive Conventions would need to approve it. This is unlikely, given the sentiment in General Convention.

The Anglican Communion will end up being structured somewhat like the Lutheran World Federation, and Williams will lose.

This actually leads to a great experiment. Those Anglicans who believe the Truth can now come over to the Church. Those that believe that any 2 people with a pulse can be married and anyone with breath can be ordained will be left to themselves in the Anglican Church. Let's see which is still around in a few years.

I feel deeply inspired by the Anglican Church, which is moving away from homophobia in its beliefs and practices.

It is very interesting that the RC church is becoming a haven for deeply prejudiced fundamentalists instead a boldly prophetic community!

Anglican doublespeak:

"In his statement, the archbishop of Canterbury challenged the view that the issue of the public blessing of same-sex unions is a matter of civil liberties, human dignity, or freedom of con-science. He insisted that the biblical evidence and the longstanding tradition of the church stand in opposition to the practice.

At the same time, he described prejudice and violence against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered persons as "sinful and disgraceful."

And the good archbishop can see absolutely NO connection between the "biblical evidence and the longstanding tradition of the church" as a centuries old catalyst for and systemic justification of "prejudice and violence against GLBT persons?" His assessment of the problematic is as flawed as his two tiered solution...especially with Rome waiting in the wings to welcome one of the disgruntled tiers - married clergy and all.

Excellent insight as usual Fr. McBrien, and unfortunately, it seems that Rome is doing just that, ignoring these trends. Today's developments have made it clear that the current Roman leadership has no intention of learning from the demands for re-evaluation, progressive thought, and dialogue that have characterized the spirit of the Anglican Communion for the past few decades.

Instead, Pope Benedict has made it clear that now the Catholic Church is willing to reward those who toe the Roman line unwaveringly, even reaching out to anti-Semetic fundamentalists for the sake of finding common ground in "orthodoxy" and creating a "purer" Church.

It is greatly disturbing seeing these trends and imagining the kind of fundamentalist Catholicism that could emerge in the next twenty years of things are allowed to continue in the same direction.

Chris Hansen, is TEC the Episcipal Church (U.S. version , Anglican British version?) Paulette

As a former Episcopalian, familiar with the affluent, white, well-educated structure of the ECUSA, I can foresee a new set of cozy little quaint stone formerly Episcopalian-now Roman-Anglican rite churches appearing in affluent suburbs with their little enclaves of the same white, affluent, well-educated now Roman Catholics-sorta with their own rites and personal prelature, no less--not part of the huge shabby understaffed and underfunded 'real' RC churches full of an agglomeration of peoples and races, served a harried underpaid or unpaid laity and the occasional elderly priest...

All those right wing Anglicans who want to exclude women and gay people should find no consolation in the Catholic Church. We Catholics are not going to exclude women and gay people forever. The institutional Church (i.e. bishops) might prefer to keep women and gay people out -- but we the people of the Church will not go along with that. So do not come running to the Catholic Church with your misguided intentions.

It is folly to think that these folks will become Catholic in the true sense of “full communion?” They will always be Anglicans who will soon enough discover that they are apples in a larger church of persimmons.

Episcopalians are a people who are used to a subsidiarity that gives the lay Vestry a great deal of power and say-so at the parish level. Boy, are THEY in for a big surprise when then "Pope."

I wonder how many will stick it out once they are badgered with Roman disagreement with their parish polity, their way of electing bishops (THAT won’t last!), their desire to ordain married men as priests, and — here’s the good’un: the Roman obsession with the evils of divorce and abortion.

Oh, it will be a long hard ride to “full communion” for these folks. I suspect that the recidivism rate will be hushed up, but substantial, particulary in the early months and years.

I think it's wonderful that Anglicans who don't believe in bending Bible teachings to suit the whims of relativism will find a home in the Catholic Church. Catholic teachings on the ordination of women and gay clergy will never change just as Christ's teachings never change. Anglicans can rest assured of the maternal care of the Catholic Church.

McBrien thinks the Anglican problem is local v. central control? Rather short-sighted. Sure, that's the governance problem that is preventing some clarity and decisiveness from ABC Williams and is hurting unity in the communion. But there is real substance on moral matters and the nature of the clerical state that are sources of conflict among the communion's members. This is about basic moral understanding among the communion members.

Perhaps a further agreement, a "flock swap" could be negotiated between Rome and Lambeth. Many Catholics would seem to be more comfortable in the Anglican Communion than in the Roman Church.

Women and gays are not excluded from the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know why any one suggests so. All are called to holiness and chastity. I do not feel deprived or second-rate as a Roman Catholic woman. I feel blessed. I have all I need.

The backlash tide of Fundamentalist Catholicism has been infiltrating the Church for decades since Vatican II upset the complacency of the Hierarchy. Lots of wealthy Catholics founded only those Catholic institutions where these ideas could be passed onto new legions of brainwashed adherants, who won't question any higher authorities.

As for the call for the Catholic Bishops to cleanse their ranks of those who enabled and covered up their subordinates who were sexual abusers, how many have been demoted and lost all their perks gained during reigns of hypocrisy??? Consider the cushy posting of Cardinal Law in the current Curia.

These leaders act like police who jail prostitutes or illegal immigrant slave laborers, rather than go after the organized rings of those criminals who promote the whole culture of human trafficking...

Why then, should people in or out of the Church, credibly believe them when they claim to speak for Christ??? Do they behave as He would???

Has no one noticed that the new welcome to Anglicans comes at the same time as the African synod? It was only last year that high ranking African Anglicans expressed their anger at trends in the "Western" churches, decrying ordination of women and gays. They went so far as to suggest secession from the global communion. Could it be that Rome's real intention here is not the aggrandizement of European or North American Anglicans, but African?

This issue is a total non-starter in the US, where Episcopalians are free to practice family planning as they see fit, and where divorced-and-remarried Episcopalians are not barred from Holy Communion.